Ummm... Pengo, your comment either makes no sense or shows a complete lack of understanding of libertarian philosophy. The guiding principle of libertarianism is the respect of the individual's right to live their life however they please so long as that does not infringe on the rights of others to live as they please.
@Anonymous 11:31 Settle down, Francis. Pengo's question was if ENNIS was using rapezombies as a metaphor for Libertarianism. Since he's (probably) not reading these comments, there's no point in you going all White Knight for Ayn Rand.
I like Ennis plenty but Crossed is just bad. Like really really bad. As in no redeeming qualities and just tons and tons of rape and murder and disturbing rape and horrifying murder for no reason at all.
For everyone thinking about reading Crossed, Um... well, I'd say don't. I'd say it's the point that broke Garth Ennis, and turned him from the talented writer he was into the violence-seeking psycho he is today, along with The Boys.
Good to see so many in the geek community who are NOT into rape as entertainment... with the apparent exception of the guy in the comic, stay away from my friends you freak.
I've never seen Crossed and from the comments here, I probably don't want to. However, I'm wondering how it compares to something like Berserk, which I do like a lot despite all the grotesque content.
Crossed is not "about" rape, and it doesn't contain any zombies. Garth Ennis uses it as a dead end scenario for exploring survivor psychology, and what it would take and mentally cost to survive in a world much like Cormac McCarthys "the Road", where instead of simply other humans, rage infected humans, or even zombies, you have diseased humans whos moral core has been completely and utterly turned off.you're not being run to ground by something as simple as a creature who wants to just eat you, or simply kill you, it's something that wants to live out every evil thought or impulse upon you, it's a human with all of the good stripped away.
It's not about it being entertained, this is a comic that invites you to endure something darker than the normal fare, it's not meant to be enjoyable, Ennis is trying to have the reader walk the tiniest fraction of a mile in these characters shoes.Modern readers think horror and think of garbage like the Saw movies, or the slew of 80's remakes, but they've forgotten that isn't horror. Horror should HORRIFY.
It's a more brutal, visceral ride that what Robert Kirkman is doing with Walking Dead, but every bit as good a study of loss of empathy, and the degradation of emotion under pressure.
I love these strips but you're as ignorant as the person making the statement. Crossed is not rape "entertainment" anymore than Gaspar Noes Irreversible is. It's about breaking the viewers heart, making them feel helpless, making them look away, shocking them without using the act for simple shock value. Sometimes it's not about making the audience happy, it's about grinding them down, taking hope away, maybe only offering the slightest of glimmers. It's annoys me when people focus on Ennis's notes of excess, and don't pay compliment to the fact the man always acknowledges the human element, and is actually a bit of a romantic optimist at heart.
Don't taint the work with the stupidity of those who never read any deeper than the splash pages.
I think that Crossed is exactly in the same vein as the Saw films. Cheap shock from gross-dumb rape or torture scenes. The fact that you are trying to legitimize it seems silly, I doubt Ennis put that much thought into it at all. Im sure he just wanted to live up to his rep of being "EXTREME" and make some quick cash off people like you Kinnon,by writing the most depressing, fucked up, stupid thing he could. Im sure most readers of Crossed are not as bullshit highbrow about why they read it.Im sure most people who read it get a kick from the rape scenes or are "really into" all the gross sick shit.It bums me out that David Lapham wrote the new Crossed series. His early indie series Stray Bullets is one of my favorite comic series ever but Crossed is just bad.
Seriously, I love the way that there's a bunch of idiots here moaning about a book they haven't fucking read. You sound like a bunch of Fred Phelps "GOD HATES FAGS" wannabe's. "Ban the evil book, don't read it otherwise you're a rapist or a pedo." FUCK OFF! It's a story - it's not a fucking guide. I doubt it's even that graphic. (We all know you dicks have tugged to Hentai anyway.) Point is - There are people that either get off on, or find art in everything. Let them fucking judge for themselves whether it's good or not. I suspect, being Ennis, that it will attempt to be a little shocking - but read it's not like you wouldn't know that going in. I'm gonna pick it up at some point, no doubt to see what the fuss is about. Does that make me a rapist? Fuck you and your dumb hick friends if you think it does. Are you the same shitheads that think "If you have a bald head, you're a nazi", or "if you don't beer then you're a queer.". Bunch o'cunts - get a life!
Wow, it's just an opposing opinion folks,no need to be so derogatory / frightened.I love Stray bullets too, hell, I was reading Lapham back in Warriors of Plasm days, my opinion isn't highbrow, it's just my own. Vive la difference and all that jazz. I don't doubt you see what you see, it's just I get a different experience.I say again, if your criticism of Crossed is the "action", you need to step back from those scenes and look at the character "reaction", that's where the gravy is.
There's still no zombies in the comic tho' 8¬)
I don't get a boner when I read Crossed, but I do get wood when I upset someone to the degree they can't even articulate themselves or even form an opinion beyond swearing and insults, or trollish behavior. That makes me know I've got absolute power over them, that's the best.It's almost as good as leaving a thread never to return knowing that some guy won't be able to resist spouting off some pathetic epithet, knowing that I've owned their day, I've owned a portion of their life, that I've owned them, while I've gone off to pastures greener and more discussion based.
I've read the original Crossed series. Yeah there's stuff in it that is very unsettling, but it's supposed to be. It's a horror comic, and indeed one of the few horror comics that I found myself in a state of unease and occasionally looking over my shoulder after reading. That's a very difficult thing to accomplish with a comic book. Now I don't think it's the greatest Ennis comic by far, I'd rather reread Preacher or wait for the new Battlefields series to come out. And I certainly don't consider it the epitome of being a comics fan like the guy in the caption seems to, but it passed the time one evening. And I have to laugh at the guy bemoaning Dave Lapham now writing Crossed. Have you actually read any of his comics, or just pulling some shutter shades out of your arse for indie cred? Crossed was made for Lapham.
Another thing that Kinnon doesn't mention is that Ennis usually bases his comics on research for his war stories. War comics are a different beast from other comics on the stands. Since the majority of comic readers are S-hero based, seeing something with the full brutality of warfare is a slap in the face to them. There's none of the Black & White morality that accomapnies such titles. There's just infected people who've been given carte blanche to do whatever they want across the countryside of the "Enemy".
I'm sure there's been Cambodia instances happening worldwide on a smaller scale, only we're willfully ignorant of such thing happening. Better to believe that we're above reducing ourselves to behaving like wild animals when faced against a threat we can't even begin to understand.
When you've been fed propoganda that the "other" is less than human, you feel obligated to do whatever you want to them. It's happened before, and will happen again, because humanity inevitably needs a scapegoat.
Then what's the point? If it's for recreational purposes (comics, books, movies), why do anything that is not enjoyable? I don't understand people that like to torture themselves.
I suspect that the EVENTS are not meant to be enjoyable. But the experience should be. I am another who hasn't read the book, but I do enjoy apocalyptic tales. I really enjoyed the end of the Walking Dead jail storyline - (Yes it's like a soap - but a less boring one.) Not because of the terrible things that happen, but in general the whole storyline, thrilled, scared, excited, relieved (Not sexually, noid.) and generally made me want to read it again for those feelings. I'm sure it's the same as most people feel at going on a rollercoaster or watching horror films. You experience the rush of fear and horrible things, but still get to step away from it in the end.
Kinnon, it sounds like this is basically Offspring in comic form. Only with less cannibalism and more rape.
While I'm sure some will criticize me for owning a copy of Ketchum's book, I will defend it for the exact reasons you described in Crossed. But Ketchum only wrote one sequel, not a series. Sorry, but it really feels like a money grab off of senseless mayhem to me.
While you seem to be very informed as to the nature of the comic book you seem to be ill informed at what an actual zombie is. A zombie is one who is no longer in control over who they once were. This includes mind control, reanimated dead & infected. Since it's been stated that the people in the comic have been infected with something that has taken all morals away and changes who they originally were then they are indeed Zombies. And they rape people a lot. I guess that would make them rape zombies. Plus the offending strip isn't about how Crossed is a bad comic. It's about how someone angrily attacks someone who doesn't share their opinion with unsupported theories about their character. Such as someone saying "Don't taint the work with the stupidity of those who never read any deeper than the splash pages."
Superclerk - I don't want to get into semantics over variations of on the zombie genre that have cropped up in modern adaptations, and it's a good point that you make that there are a lot of differing interpretations under the zombie umbrella, but (and I didn't really want to go too far, because we're kind of knee deep in spoilers now) the crossed are revealed eventually in the series, as something that while one part of their morality is gone, they do start to exhibit social structure within their numbers, a really scary capacity for tactics and cruelty, which alas most definitely does NOT make them zombies. The comic falls under the domain of being an end of the world scenario very much similar to zombie stories, I'll grant you that, but the crossed themselves are something a little bit more complex and different.
I've got no umbridge with the strip, which to me seems to be about a chap criticizing MRTIMs commitment to their job. MRTIM says they don't read Crossed, so my statement is not relevant to them, it was more in relevance to the folks saying Crossed was only read by a "certain group of people" in a derogatory fashion. I'm one of those people, so I just offered up my thoughts. My thought is that in summing up a book they don't read with 2 words, one of which is, shall we say, a little inaccurate (zombie), and the other which carries such strong negative stigma (rape),I just felt it was a little negatively dismissive of a work if you're not reading it. I'm like anyone else, I worked as a video store clerk for years to pay for education, so I got my love of films (and this was long enough ago, that it was pre -censorship so I saw ALL the zombie classics uncut way back when they were "nasties"), for a decade I did the comic / TPB buying for my LCS, which was a joy, and it's partly why I enjoy the strips so much, these guys do resonate,and they do exist, I've had my share of strange folks, but also some of the best people I've ever met. It's just this was the first strip where I felt the observer was as guilty of negativity as the person being observed.I just felt boiling anything down that you haven't seen or read, to a 2 word zing, is a tad unfair.
..and I'm sorry, but I'm not going to apologize for comics as a medium or contribute to it's dumbing down,I love 'em too much.Even if you feel Crossed has shock value, or is a cash in,or whatever these good folks feelings and justified opinions are, there's merit to Jacen Burrows incredible sequential art, and there's merit to Ennis's dialog from page to page, even if you don't like some of it. People who don't try to appreciate comics beyond the splash pages ARE stupid, and I'm not letting them off the hook, I just can't. Too many years enthusing, getting people into the medium, but then encouraging them to appreciate the layers the medium offers.
Thanks for your counterpoint though, the whole "interpretation of what a zombie is thing" is a discussion I've had a dozen times with great people both on the video store and in the LCS, and it's got merit, even if we might disagree in this scenario. All the best.
Chris- I haven't had the pleasure of the book so I can't comment,are the books superior to the films?, I thought the first movie was really poor, and won't bother with the 2nd. What I've heard Ketchum runs the same line of criticism that we're seeing here, so it may be if you gave Crossed a go, you might find a similar thread. The comic is dialog intensive over anything else, and there is only 1 rape scene in issue #2 (if memory serves)on a double page, and like any good writer, Ennis uses to carry over the implied threat of what the Crossed are capable of to the rest of the book. All IMHO of course, but the comic is not wall to wall violence and debauchery, there's a lot of talking heads, and human reaction. Give it a spin.
Can I just say at this point i'm glad we're not talking about Avatars Neonomicon? *LMAO* YEESH. (Although, that comic is spectacularly layered, not just in art, but language and tone)
twobitspecialist - Well I don't know about anyone else, but I like a good cross section of stuff that's strong enough to make me feel a range of emotion, it's the shit that doesn't make me feel anything that bothers me,the mindless empty drivel that gets thrown out there. It's not about being tortured, but getting a little challenged by the work, you expose yourself to a little bit of dark stuff,because it makes you appreciate what you have in the way of good stuff. Can't appreciate the highs without understanding or more importantly empathisising with the lows etc etc.
I sold a ton of Crossed to folks that had a great time with the series, but in the times we get a chance in the shop to kick the can around, and say what we liked or didn't like about it, if I had someone say "because the violence and rape,was KEWL"!, I just wouldn't talk to them again. I didn't have that experience, because the majority of folks picking it up were more engaged the better question. "What the hell would I do in this scenario"? "what would you do to survive", "would I want to surivive"?
That's why I think "The Road" is the series natural sibling over anything else, remember to read the incredible book before the movie (which is still a superb film)
Anyhoo, sorry for the ramble,I just wanted to do justice to the thoughts other had popped down. love the strips, some of them of course are scarily on point, maybe it would be nice once in a while to counterpoint it with some of the great people you meet in comic stores.We all remember the bad ones, cos they stick out like sore thumbs, but it'd be nice to pay tribute to the cool ones as well - the little kids who come in for the first time, or on FCBD, the long standing quiet ones, who just break out a compliment once every 2 years from the bottom of their hearts, the lonely folks who just love to hang out, but are so damn funny, you're glad they do.....
Just a thought, this all comes from the same place as you guys, just someone being passionate about the stuff they love. Everyone have a great weekend.
Never have I seen so much fan rage on this blog. I just want to say: "it's something that wants to live out every evil thought or impulse upon you" wow, they SO stole this idea from Firefly! ;)
Sorceror - I see your wink ,and I love The serenity movie to pieces too, but (and as much as I hate to do this,because dear feck it's not a very good film)anyone who watched John Carpenters "Ghosts of Mars" 4 years before Serenity was thinking Joss Whedon was the thief with regards the Reavers. ;¬)
I'm pretty sure the story is the Serenity production even poached some of the costumes and weapons from the same prop department "Ghosts" used.*lol*
I don't know where you'd go back to for the core idea, maybe history for Scottish borderland reivers, there's a legend about a cannibal clan in scottish lore I vaguely remember but I forget the name, possibly H.G. Wells, or Lovecrafts stories with sub-humans or morlocks? I guess everyones going back to the same well, and trying to do something a little different with it.
I just wish to hell Whedon had been given a little more time to flesh out what he was doing with the Reavers, you always got the feeling there was something more behind their intelligence, use of ships and such, maybe a hivemind concept like Stephen King used in "cell". Damn, I still miss that show.
I agree with Kinnon: Crossed is good shit. Classifying it as 'a comic about rape zombies' is a shameful oversimplification, and I say that as someone who rolls their eyes at the nitpicking that goes on in the comments on this site. The book isn't about the 'crossed' anymore than Night of the Living Dead is about zombies.
And really, whether you find Crossed to be over the top or not, there's no doubt that Ennis is still the master of characterization/building believable relationships between his characters.
"Then what's the point? If it's for recreational purposes (comics, books, movies), why do anything that is not enjoyable? I don't understand people that like to torture themselves."
I'll preface this by saying I haven't actually read Crossed, so I can't comment on it. With that said, I tend to draw a personal distinction between things I "enjoy" and things I "appreciate", in most part because "enjoy" has certain unfortunate connotations to some folks.
To give an example of something I'm familiar with, the television show Six Feet Under had an episode where a character was mugged for the better part of the episode by some sadistic creep. I've actually had a fairly traumatic mugging experience in my earlier years, so to say that I "enjoyed" this episode might be wording it wrong. It actually made my skin crawl. But I did appreciate it! It was done well! It (and following episodes) captured the fallout from such an experience expertly.
Six Feet Under isn't horror in the traditional sense (I'd actually consider it existential horror to a certain degree), but if it has one thing in common with (good) horror, it's understanding that these unseemly elements exist in the world around us. It's not about celebrating them as it is about shining a light on them, looking at them with the unflinching eye. To help us understand them a bit better.
To everyone: I love reading. I also love comics. In fact I love all sorts of media. But sometimes, there are some things that just shouldn't be portrayed in any form so explicitly. Whether it be entertainment/experience etc. Whatever. If you want to 'better understand' what rape is like, go to a rape victim support group. Because essentially, rapists are people who have (for whatever reason) lost their humanity and ability to empathize.
I don't like Crossed past the original nine issue mini, but that part is very good. It gets grimdark to the extreme, even by the standards of Garth Ennis, but the ending saves it. That one final page has a little glimpse of ordinary humanity, the kind that Ennis often claims to look for but never seems to find in his own work; but it's enough to make enduring the senseless violence worthwhile.
I'd rather recommend Warren Ellis' Black Gas any day of the week, though.
Would people who dislike comics even know where to go to find work in a comic shop?
ReplyDeleteI guess if the dude's into Crossed, it's not surprising that he's this hostile
ReplyDelete@Shaun you mean just like all the fans of superman can fly?
ReplyDeleteThis is another one where I would have liked the set-up in panel, maybe as a two or three panel strip, since I've no familiarity with Crossed.
ReplyDeleteCrossed is a comic made by retards for retards
ReplyDeleteReading Crossed, like harming animals, is a warning sign for becoming a serial killer.
ReplyDeleteHmm, had to Google Crossed and since the first volume was written by Garth Ennis I just have to ask whether it's as good as Preacher. :)
ReplyDeleteThere aren't many books I've ever wanted to go Fredric Wertham biblical on, and Crossed is #1.
ReplyDeleteIs CROSSED some kind of metaphor for Libertarians?
ReplyDeleteUmmm... Pengo, your comment either makes no sense or shows a complete lack of understanding of libertarian philosophy. The guiding principle of libertarianism is the respect of the individual's right to live their life however they please so long as that does not infringe on the rights of others to live as they please.
ReplyDelete@Pengo;
ReplyDeleteNo, it's a metaphor for rape.
Also white Christian Republican Middle-American men who molest their children, but mostly rape.
Crossed is awesome :)
ReplyDelete@Malex You made me lol myself. Thank you!
ReplyDelete@Anonymous 11:31
ReplyDeleteSettle down, Francis. Pengo's question was if ENNIS was using rapezombies as a metaphor for Libertarianism. Since he's (probably) not reading these comments, there's no point in you going all White Knight for Ayn Rand.
crossed was actually pretty good. okay, but yes, rape zombies.
ReplyDeleteSweet Zombie Jesus, but do I love "Our Valued Customers"... each one is a gem... as sad, sad little gem.
ReplyDeleteYou should sell prints of these... seriously.
ReplyDeleteI like Ennis plenty but Crossed is just bad. Like really really bad. As in no redeeming qualities and just tons and tons of rape and murder and disturbing rape and horrifying murder for no reason at all.
ReplyDeletelike a buddy of mine said, thats the kinda thing that you get put on some list somewhere when you buy it.
ReplyDeleteWell, that answers a lot of questions for me. Such as why I haven't started reading Crossed.
ReplyDelete@Anonymous
ReplyDelete"You should sell prints of these... seriously."
http://ourvaluedcashgrab.blogspot.com/
For everyone thinking about reading Crossed, Um... well, I'd say don't. I'd say it's the point that broke Garth Ennis, and turned him from the talented writer he was into the violence-seeking psycho he is today, along with The Boys.
ReplyDeleteGood to see so many in the geek community who are NOT into rape as entertainment... with the apparent exception of the guy in the comic, stay away from my friends you freak.
ReplyDeleteI've never seen Crossed and from the comments here, I probably don't want to. However, I'm wondering how it compares to something like Berserk, which I do like a lot despite all the grotesque content.
ReplyDeleteCrossed is not "about" rape, and it doesn't contain any zombies. Garth Ennis uses it as a dead end scenario for exploring survivor psychology, and what it would take and mentally cost to survive in a world much like Cormac McCarthys "the Road", where instead of simply other humans, rage infected humans, or even zombies, you have diseased humans whos moral core has been completely and utterly turned off.you're not being run to ground by something as simple as a creature who wants to just eat you, or simply kill you, it's something that wants to live out every evil thought or impulse upon you, it's a human with all of the good stripped away.
ReplyDeleteIt's not about it being entertained, this is a comic that invites you to endure something darker than the normal fare, it's not meant to be enjoyable, Ennis is trying to have the reader walk the tiniest fraction of a mile in these characters shoes.Modern readers think horror and think of garbage like the Saw movies, or the slew of 80's remakes, but they've forgotten that isn't horror. Horror should HORRIFY.
It's a more brutal, visceral ride that what Robert Kirkman is doing with Walking Dead, but every bit as good a study of loss of empathy, and the degradation of emotion under pressure.
I love these strips but you're as ignorant as the person making the statement. Crossed is not rape "entertainment" anymore than Gaspar Noes Irreversible is. It's about breaking the viewers heart, making them feel helpless, making them look away, shocking them without using the act for simple shock value. Sometimes it's not about making the audience happy, it's about grinding them down, taking hope away, maybe only offering the slightest of glimmers. It's annoys me when people focus on Ennis's notes of excess, and don't pay compliment to the fact the man always acknowledges the human element, and is actually a bit of a romantic optimist at heart.
Don't taint the work with the stupidity of those who never read any deeper than the splash pages.
Applause to Kinnon - here's someone who actually read and understood crossed.
ReplyDeleteRe: Kinnon - "It's a human with all of the good stripped away."
ReplyDeleteRight. A Libertarian.
Fuck you, Kinnon. It's a shitty comic for stupid morons who rationalize it as art. Fuck you, moron.
ReplyDeleteI think that Crossed is exactly in the same vein as the Saw films. Cheap shock from gross-dumb rape or torture scenes. The fact that you are trying to legitimize it seems silly, I doubt Ennis put that much thought into it at all. Im sure he just wanted to live up to his rep of being "EXTREME" and make some quick cash off people like you Kinnon,by writing the most depressing, fucked up, stupid thing he could. Im sure most readers of Crossed are not as bullshit highbrow about why they read it.Im sure most people who read it get a kick from the rape scenes or are "really into" all the gross sick shit.It bums me out that David Lapham wrote the new Crossed series. His early indie series Stray Bullets is one of my favorite comic series ever but Crossed is just bad.
ReplyDeleteHey Kinnon, do you get a boner when you read Crossed.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, I love the way that there's a bunch of idiots here moaning about a book they haven't fucking read. You sound like a bunch of Fred Phelps "GOD HATES FAGS" wannabe's. "Ban the evil book, don't read it otherwise you're a rapist or a pedo." FUCK OFF! It's a story - it's not a fucking guide. I doubt it's even that graphic. (We all know you dicks have tugged to Hentai anyway.) Point is - There are people that either get off on, or find art in everything. Let them fucking judge for themselves whether it's good or not. I suspect, being Ennis, that it will attempt to be a little shocking - but read it's not like you wouldn't know that going in. I'm gonna pick it up at some point, no doubt to see what the fuss is about. Does that make me a rapist? Fuck you and your dumb hick friends if you think it does. Are you the same shitheads that think "If you have a bald head, you're a nazi", or "if you don't beer then you're a queer.". Bunch o'cunts - get a life!
ReplyDeleteWow, it's just an opposing opinion folks,no need to be so derogatory / frightened.I love Stray bullets too, hell, I was reading Lapham back in Warriors of Plasm days, my opinion isn't highbrow, it's just my own. Vive la difference and all that jazz. I don't doubt you see what you see, it's just I get a different experience.I say again, if your criticism of Crossed is the "action", you need to step back from those scenes and look at the character "reaction", that's where the gravy is.
ReplyDeleteThere's still no zombies in the comic tho' 8¬)
I don't get a boner when I read Crossed, but I do get wood when I upset someone to the degree they can't even articulate themselves or even form an opinion beyond swearing and insults, or trollish behavior. That makes me know I've got absolute power over them, that's the best.It's almost as good as leaving a thread never to return knowing that some guy won't be able to resist spouting off some pathetic epithet, knowing that I've owned their day, I've owned a portion of their life, that I've owned them, while I've gone off to pastures greener and more discussion based.
So who wants to be that guy? 8¬)
Hay what's going on in this thread?
ReplyDeleteOh darn, it's me!
I've read the original Crossed series. Yeah there's stuff in it that is very unsettling, but it's supposed to be.
ReplyDeleteIt's a horror comic, and indeed one of the few horror comics that I found myself in a state of unease and occasionally looking over my shoulder after reading. That's a very difficult thing to accomplish with a comic book.
Now I don't think it's the greatest Ennis comic by far, I'd rather reread Preacher or wait for the new Battlefields series to come out. And I certainly don't consider it the epitome of being a comics fan like the guy in the caption seems to, but it passed the time one evening.
And I have to laugh at the guy bemoaning Dave Lapham now writing Crossed. Have you actually read any of his comics, or just pulling some shutter shades out of your arse for indie cred? Crossed was made for Lapham.
Kinnon:
ReplyDeleteYAAAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!!!
Another thing that Kinnon doesn't mention is that Ennis usually bases his comics on research for his war stories. War comics are a different beast from other comics on the stands. Since the majority of comic readers are S-hero based, seeing something with the full brutality of warfare is a slap in the face to them. There's none of the Black & White morality that accomapnies such titles. There's just infected people who've been given carte blanche to do whatever they want across the countryside of the "Enemy".
ReplyDeleteI'm sure there's been Cambodia instances happening worldwide on a smaller scale, only we're willfully ignorant of such thing happening. Better to believe that we're above reducing ourselves to behaving like wild animals when faced against a threat we can't even begin to understand.
When you've been fed propoganda that the "other" is less than human, you feel obligated to do whatever you want to them. It's happened before, and will happen again, because humanity inevitably needs a scapegoat.
"it's not meant to be enjoyable"
ReplyDeleteThen what's the point? If it's for recreational purposes (comics, books, movies), why do anything that is not enjoyable? I don't understand people that like to torture themselves.
I suspect that the EVENTS are not meant to be enjoyable. But the experience should be. I am another who hasn't read the book, but I do enjoy apocalyptic tales. I really enjoyed the end of the Walking Dead jail storyline - (Yes it's like a soap - but a less boring one.) Not because of the terrible things that happen, but in general the whole storyline, thrilled, scared, excited, relieved (Not sexually, noid.) and generally made me want to read it again for those feelings. I'm sure it's the same as most people feel at going on a rollercoaster or watching horror films. You experience the rush of fear and horrible things, but still get to step away from it in the end.
ReplyDeleteCrossed is kinda like The Insane Clown Posse. Insightful and meaningful to a select few and kinda dumb/gross for every body else.
ReplyDeleteKinnon, it sounds like this is basically Offspring in comic form. Only with less cannibalism and more rape.
ReplyDeleteWhile I'm sure some will criticize me for owning a copy of Ketchum's book, I will defend it for the exact reasons you described in Crossed. But Ketchum only wrote one sequel, not a series. Sorry, but it really feels like a money grab off of senseless mayhem to me.
Kinnon -
ReplyDeleteWhile you seem to be very informed as to the nature of the comic book you seem to be ill informed at what an actual zombie is. A zombie is one who is no longer in control over who they once were. This includes mind control, reanimated dead & infected. Since it's been stated that the people in the comic have been infected with something that has taken all morals away and changes who they originally were then they are indeed Zombies. And they rape people a lot. I guess that would make them rape zombies.
Plus the offending strip isn't about how Crossed is a bad comic. It's about how someone angrily attacks someone who doesn't share their opinion with unsupported theories about their character. Such as someone saying "Don't taint the work with the stupidity of those who never read any deeper than the splash pages."
Superclerk - I don't want to get into semantics over variations of on the zombie genre that have cropped up in modern adaptations, and it's a good point that you make that there are a lot of differing interpretations under the zombie umbrella, but (and I didn't really want to go too far, because we're kind of knee deep in spoilers now) the crossed are revealed eventually in the series, as something that while one part of their morality is gone, they do start to exhibit social structure within their numbers, a really scary capacity for tactics and cruelty, which alas most definitely does NOT make them zombies. The comic falls under the domain of being an end of the world scenario very much similar to zombie stories, I'll grant you that, but the crossed themselves are something a little bit more complex and different.
ReplyDeleteI've got no umbridge with the strip, which to me seems to be about a chap criticizing MRTIMs commitment to their job. MRTIM says they don't read Crossed, so my statement is not relevant to them, it was more in relevance to the folks saying Crossed was only read by a "certain group of people" in a derogatory fashion. I'm one of those people, so I just offered up my thoughts. My thought is that in summing up a book they don't read with 2 words, one of which is, shall we say, a little inaccurate (zombie), and the other which carries such strong negative stigma (rape),I just felt it was a little negatively dismissive of a work if you're not reading it. I'm like anyone else, I worked as a video store clerk for years to pay for education, so I got my love of films (and this was long enough ago, that it was pre -censorship so I saw ALL the zombie classics uncut way back when they were "nasties"), for a decade I did the comic / TPB buying for my LCS, which was a joy, and it's partly why I enjoy the strips so much, these guys do resonate,and they do exist, I've had my share of strange folks, but also some of the best people I've ever met. It's just this was the first strip where I felt the observer was as guilty of negativity as the person being observed.I just felt boiling anything down that you haven't seen or read, to a 2 word zing, is a tad unfair.
..and I'm sorry, but I'm not going to apologize for comics as a medium or contribute to it's dumbing down,I love 'em too much.Even if you feel Crossed has shock value, or is a cash in,or whatever these good folks feelings and justified opinions are, there's merit to Jacen Burrows incredible sequential art, and there's merit to Ennis's dialog from page to page, even if you don't like some of it. People who don't try to appreciate comics beyond the splash pages ARE stupid, and I'm not letting them off the hook, I just can't. Too many years enthusing, getting people into the medium, but then encouraging them to appreciate the layers the medium offers.
Thanks for your counterpoint though, the whole "interpretation of what a zombie is thing" is a discussion I've had a dozen times with great people both on the video store and in the LCS, and it's got merit, even if we might disagree in this scenario. All the best.
Chris- I haven't had the pleasure of the book so I can't comment,are the books superior to the films?, I thought the first movie was really poor, and won't bother with the 2nd. What I've heard Ketchum runs the same line of criticism that we're seeing here, so it may be if you gave Crossed a go, you might find a similar thread. The comic is dialog intensive over anything else, and there is only 1 rape scene in issue #2 (if memory serves)on a double page, and like any good writer, Ennis uses to carry over the implied threat of what the Crossed are capable of to the rest of the book. All IMHO of course, but the comic is not wall to wall violence and debauchery, there's a lot of talking heads, and human reaction. Give it a spin.
ReplyDeleteCan I just say at this point i'm glad we're not talking about Avatars Neonomicon? *LMAO* YEESH. (Although, that comic is spectacularly layered, not just in art, but language and tone)
twobitspecialist - Well I don't know about anyone else, but I like a good cross section of stuff that's strong enough to make me feel a range of emotion, it's the shit that doesn't make me feel anything that bothers me,the mindless empty drivel that gets thrown out there. It's not about being tortured, but getting a little challenged by the work, you expose yourself to a little bit of dark stuff,because it makes you appreciate what you have in the way of good stuff. Can't appreciate the highs without understanding or more importantly empathisising with the lows etc etc.
ReplyDeleteI sold a ton of Crossed to folks that had a great time with the series, but in the times we get a chance in the shop to kick the can around, and say what we liked or didn't like about it, if I had someone say "because the violence and rape,was KEWL"!, I just wouldn't talk to them again. I didn't have that experience, because the majority of folks picking it up were more engaged the better question. "What the hell would I do in this scenario"? "what would you do to survive", "would I want to surivive"?
That's why I think "The Road" is the series natural sibling over anything else, remember to read the incredible book before the movie (which is still a superb film)
Anyhoo, sorry for the ramble,I just wanted to do justice to the thoughts other had popped down. love the strips, some of them of course are scarily on point, maybe it would be nice once in a while to counterpoint it with some of the great people you meet in comic stores.We all remember the bad ones, cos they stick out like sore thumbs, but it'd be nice to pay tribute to the cool ones as well - the little kids who come in for the first time, or on FCBD, the long standing quiet ones, who just break out a compliment once every 2 years from the bottom of their hearts, the lonely folks who just love to hang out, but are so damn funny, you're glad they do.....
Just a thought, this all comes from the same place as you guys, just someone being passionate about the stuff they love. Everyone have a great weekend.
Never have I seen so much fan rage on this blog. I just want to say: "it's something that wants to live out every evil thought or impulse upon you" wow, they SO stole this idea from Firefly! ;)
ReplyDeleteSorceror - I see your wink ,and I love The serenity movie to pieces too, but (and as much as I hate to do this,because dear feck it's not a very good film)anyone who watched John Carpenters "Ghosts of Mars" 4 years before Serenity was thinking Joss Whedon was the thief with regards the Reavers. ;¬)
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure the story is the Serenity production even poached some of the costumes and weapons from the same prop department "Ghosts" used.*lol*
I don't know where you'd go back to for the core idea, maybe history for Scottish borderland reivers, there's a legend about a cannibal clan in scottish lore I vaguely remember but I forget the name, possibly H.G. Wells, or Lovecrafts stories with sub-humans or morlocks? I guess everyones going back to the same well, and trying to do something a little different with it.
I just wish to hell Whedon had been given a little more time to flesh out what he was doing with the Reavers, you always got the feeling there was something more behind their intelligence, use of ships and such, maybe a hivemind concept like Stephen King used in "cell". Damn, I still miss that show.
I agree with Kinnon: Crossed is good shit. Classifying it as 'a comic about rape zombies' is a shameful oversimplification, and I say that as someone who rolls their eyes at the nitpicking that goes on in the comments on this site. The book isn't about the 'crossed' anymore than Night of the Living Dead is about zombies.
ReplyDeleteAnd really, whether you find Crossed to be over the top or not, there's no doubt that Ennis is still the master of characterization/building believable relationships between his characters.
Twobitspecialist:
ReplyDelete"Then what's the point? If it's for recreational purposes (comics, books, movies), why do anything that is not enjoyable? I don't understand people that like to torture themselves."
I'll preface this by saying I haven't actually read Crossed, so I can't comment on it. With that said, I tend to draw a personal distinction between things I "enjoy" and things I "appreciate", in most part because "enjoy" has certain unfortunate connotations to some folks.
To give an example of something I'm familiar with, the television show Six Feet Under had an episode where a character was mugged for the better part of the episode by some sadistic creep. I've actually had a fairly traumatic mugging experience in my earlier years, so to say that I "enjoyed" this episode might be wording it wrong. It actually made my skin crawl. But I did appreciate it! It was done well! It (and following episodes) captured the fallout from such an experience expertly.
Six Feet Under isn't horror in the traditional sense (I'd actually consider it existential horror to a certain degree), but if it has one thing in common with (good) horror, it's understanding that these unseemly elements exist in the world around us. It's not about celebrating them as it is about shining a light on them, looking at them with the unflinching eye. To help us understand them a bit better.
To everyone: I love reading. I also love comics. In fact I love all sorts of media. But sometimes, there are some things that just shouldn't be portrayed in any form so explicitly. Whether it be entertainment/experience etc. Whatever. If you want to 'better understand' what rape is like, go to a rape victim support group. Because essentially, rapists are people who have (for whatever reason) lost their humanity and ability to empathize.
ReplyDeleteHilarious that the responses to Kinnon's well reasoned opinions about Crossed are so knee jerk ugly and profane.
ReplyDeleteI don't like Crossed past the original nine issue mini, but that part is very good. It gets grimdark to the extreme, even by the standards of Garth Ennis, but the ending saves it. That one final page has a little glimpse of ordinary humanity, the kind that Ennis often claims to look for but never seems to find in his own work; but it's enough to make enduring the senseless violence worthwhile.
ReplyDeleteI'd rather recommend Warren Ellis' Black Gas any day of the week, though.