Not knowledgeable on the X-Men lore and this seems like a good place to ask the question.
Why is Magneto the bad guy? Professor Xavier talks about nonviolence and peaceful resolution but nothing ever seems to come of it. As near as I can tell he mostly just spends his time training teenage mutants to be an elite superteam of destruction. Talks about peace and diplomacy but somehow Wolverine's got a role to play in all that.
Magneto condones murder, but as far as I can tell it's just because everyone in the world keeps trying to kill him. He's successfully created multiple safehavens where a mutant can live in peace. Genosha and Asteroid M. I mean those are real results right there, and I can't think of a single life Xavier's ever saved to contrast against it.
So like what am I missing or what have I misunderstood? I don't get it. I figure there's gotta be someone in here who reads the comics or something.
I'm not particularly well versed, but I think it's more along the lines of Magneto wants to have mutants rule as a superior race, while Xavier wants co-existence. And I think at times Magneto isn't necessarily opposed to outright genocide of all non mutants.
But yeah, in the end Xavier does seem pretty ineffectual. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, of course.
I just don't bother referring to Magneto as a villian anymore. In my mind he's neither villian nor hero. He's a guy who wants to protect his people and he always does what he believes is neccesary to see that end. He believes he is doing the right thing, regardless of what other people think of his methods.
This is a common misconception if you haven't followed X-Men from the beginning. The Magneto/Xavier dichotomy isn't about morality, but whether it's appropriate or not to wear a cape.
One of the interesting contrasts between Xavier and Magneto is that Xavier is the one with the dreams of peace and harmony but he's a thorough bastard and Magneto is willing to break a few eggs to make his omelette but he's a good and honourable man.
Yep Magneto is like Lex Luthor, except one is mutant-side and the other is human-side.
For Magneto, he's been persecuted as a mutant and sees humanity as mutant persecutors who hurt mutants because they're afraid of them, afraid of their superiority.He wants mutants to rule, as they are the next step of evolution, the superior beings. They should rule, not be forced into compromises at best and persecuted at worse.
For Lex, he sees supers as too dangerous and believes in human purity. Superman happens to be a super nice guy, but if he wasn't, if he was aiming to rule the Earth, then Lex would be praised and hailed as a hero and savior. I'm only exaggerating a little.
So it's not morality... onl perspective.
As for this guy... he's probably being persecuted due to being an idiot and believes idiot should rule. Or something.
It drives me crazy that Lex Luthor isn't viewed as a hero. He'd guide us into a golden age of prosperity if only we'd let him. Instead everyone worships some superpowered farmboy imposing his antiquated and completely uneducated views on morality on the populace of the planet as if that's the face of progress.
Superman should go back to the cornfields and leave the visionaries to their work. Either that or start helping out by donating his large collection of Alien Tech to Luthor instead of letting it collect dust in his fortress of solitude out of some misguided sentimentality.
Yeah, all Lex Luthor ever did was successfully create a means for humanity to bypass the limits of our physical bodies, invent a mechanism to transfer a mind into a cloned body thus bringing us closer to conquering mortality itself, and almost singlehandedly spearhead the rebuilding of Gotham City after a natural disaster had completely destroyed it and nobody else was willing to lend aid.
Pfft. Never worked in a soup kitchen. He's a genius multibillionaire and you expect him to waste his time and energy on manual labor?
Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. Not like he's the only hero ever to be a little cold-blooded or to kill people. Guy's not perfect, but he's definitely more hero than villain.
Lex Luthor is a murderer that is motivated almost solely by greed. His desire to defend the Earth has nothing to do with helping people and everything to do with feeding his own ego. During the Blackest Night, the orange ring of avarice didn't choose him for nothing. He's like any other criminal. They always have some sort of excuse for doing the evil things they do but in the end the ends almost never justify the means. Just because his character is more developed than the stereotypical characature of a villain doesn't bring him even remotely close to being a hero.
The man's greedy? Why the hell shouldn't he be? Do you complain when someone who cured a disease was motivated by personal gain? If they cured a disease the deserve to make some money off of it. The man created Metallo and we're supposed to vilify him because he was motivated by a desire to kill an Alien Menace? Or even if we're gonna say a desire to kill a hero, the man still invented Metallo. What possible motivation could change the fact that through his actions he consistently strengthens humanity? So he's got a grudge. Doesn't change the fact that he's the only one actively working to keep Superman from having his way with the planet.
You can't tell me that Superman's not a threat. His alien physiology alone has repeatedly placed him in the role of the destroyer. His flesh may be tough but his mind is still vulnerable. Any day he could crack if he just happened to be subjected to the right experiences. There's nothing the man does that humanity couldn't do for itself but he breeds complacency in the hearts of men because everyone's so goshdarn sure that when times get tough the alien will take care of everything for them.
Is Lex Luthor Greedy? Sure. Is he Power Hungry? Absolutely. It's absurd that anyone ever isn't. Everyone should be both those things. If anything the fact that Superman somehow lacks any desire for personal gain is a clear sign that something's wrong with him and he's a ticking time bomb of repressed emotion, probably due to his upbringing. The day Lex Luthor becomes unnecessary is the day we get Superman a shrink and he starts using those powers to make some cash on the side.
There's something very disturbing about the way you seem to think 'the fact that Superman somehow lacks any desire for personal gain is a clear sign that something's wrong with him'. You're not one of those Randroids, are you?
You pretend as if Superman wasn't in the equation Lex Luthor would be nothing but a benefactor for the human race. That simply isn't the case. If he didn't have Superman as a distraction he would be using his super intelligence and inventions to bend humanity to his will. And you continually seem to gloss over the fact that he casually murders innocent people when they're mere inconveniences. For instance, he once ordered the assassination of a pair of truckers simply for not getting a shipment delivered fast enough. A hero would NEVER do something like that, and the fact that you seem to think that's somehow hero material and A-OK is pretty scary. I fear for those who live near you.
I seem to remember a plotline where Superman disappeared from Earth for a year or so. Did Lex take the opportunity to use his vast genius to lead humanity into a new golden age? No, he spent the time plotting new ways to defeat Superman for when he (inevitably) came back. Sums it up really.
Heroes can get away with things we can't. In actuality running around the city with your face obscured beating up civilians isn't A-OK in the first place but nobody's claiming that Batman's not a hero because his behavior would be monstrous if any of us were to do the same. That's something Lex has a leg up on the most of the heroic community by the way. He's never had to hide behind an alias. Lex Luthor can answer for his actions. Can Superman?
More on the contrary. The catch of being a Hero is that you can't afford to do things normal people would. Specially Superman, who could just, like, snap the neck of Lex Luthor, problem solved. I mean, that's who anyone would do with a recurrent nemesis who time and time again attempts to kill you no matter how many times you have spared him.
But Superman doesn't kill him because, he is a superhero, he can't abuse his powers. With great power comes great responsibility and all that.
"We only let let Batman do what HE does because he keeps it on the rights side of the LAW. This is Simple. You're a MURDERER. And I'm taking you to JAIL, Red Hood."
Wait, that can't be an actual quote. I mean, what Batman does is blatantly illegal. The number of laws he breaks on the average night dives into the realm of absurdity.
Well either way I guess you got me. Any definition of hero where Red Hood doesn't qualify probably also wouldn't include ol' Luthor.
There plenty of illegal activities and "crimes" that can be overlooked for the greater good, but there are also a few that just plain can't. Murder and rape for instance. No matter how many times you save the city or planet I don't think you'll ever get away with being a pedophile. Those kinds of things make speeding, destruction of property, and sending thugs to the ER downright forgiveable.
Say what you will about murder, in a universe where The Joker is hanging around I have a hard time swallowing the attitude that it's an absolutely unforgivable act with no exceptions. I mean if he was my city's problem I'm pretty sure I wouldn't make it past the third breakout without beginning to reevaluate my views on due process.
Heck, on a basic level it's just math. How many lives have been saved, how many people were killed. If it's a net gain then you're in the clear.
And this is the reason why superhero stories aren't usually located on Texas, were the Legal System would have no qualms to fry every Villiain as the hero hands him to the cops. And you as a writer would be unable to re-utilize villiains.
"We only let let Batman do what HE does because he keeps it on the rights side of the LAW. This is Simple. You're a MURDERER. And I'm taking you to JAIL, Red Hood."
Keep in mind that the Batman in question was Dick Grayson, who, being an ex-cop, was a lot more cooperative with the police than Bruce Wayne. Gordon and the GCPD might not have known who was under the cowl, but they knew it was a different Batman.
Ah, that makes sense. Not like Commissioner Gordon was touting the legality of Bruce Wayne's actions or anything. If you're working closely with the police and they're aware of your activities then it really is a different story. Just a quick "Hey, this is happening and this is what I'm doing about it. That cool with you guys?" makes all the difference.
I'll certainly admit that in a universe where the heroes hadn't come to be portrayed as progressively more morally ambiguous Lex definitely wouldn't qualify for that kind of status. Just with all the people running around in the DCU doing their thing, always for the greater good regardless of the cost, I find it a little hard to condemn Lex Luthor for what seems to me to be some very minor differences in his morality.
I'm sure the holocaust was really hard on you.
ReplyDeleteYes, like Danny Devito and Arnold Schwartznegger in "Twins"
ReplyDeleteNot knowledgeable on the X-Men lore and this seems like a good place to ask the question.
ReplyDeleteWhy is Magneto the bad guy? Professor Xavier talks about nonviolence and peaceful resolution but nothing ever seems to come of it. As near as I can tell he mostly just spends his time training teenage mutants to be an elite superteam of destruction. Talks about peace and diplomacy but somehow Wolverine's got a role to play in all that.
Magneto condones murder, but as far as I can tell it's just because everyone in the world keeps trying to kill him. He's successfully created multiple safehavens where a mutant can live in peace. Genosha and Asteroid M. I mean those are real results right there, and I can't think of a single life Xavier's ever saved to contrast against it.
So like what am I missing or what have I misunderstood? I don't get it. I figure there's gotta be someone in here who reads the comics or something.
I'm not particularly well versed, but I think it's more along the lines of Magneto wants to have mutants rule as a superior race, while Xavier wants co-existence. And I think at times Magneto isn't necessarily opposed to outright genocide of all non mutants.
DeleteBut yeah, in the end Xavier does seem pretty ineffectual. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, of course.
I just don't bother referring to Magneto as a villian anymore. In my mind he's neither villian nor hero. He's a guy who wants to protect his people and he always does what he believes is neccesary to see that end. He believes he is doing the right thing, regardless of what other people think of his methods.
DeleteAh, fair enough. Sounds like it really is a bit of a grey area. Thought I was missing some huge part of the picture.
DeleteThis is a common misconception if you haven't followed X-Men from the beginning. The Magneto/Xavier dichotomy isn't about morality, but whether it's appropriate or not to wear a cape.
ReplyDeleteAnd hair envy.
DeleteMagneto has thick, luxurious silver hair,
and Xavier has a chrome dome.
but he makes bald look good
DeleteOne of the interesting contrasts between Xavier and Magneto is that Xavier is the one with the dreams of peace and harmony but he's a thorough bastard and Magneto is willing to break a few eggs to make his omelette but he's a good and honourable man.
ReplyDeleteThe first issue of the X-Men I ever owned was entitled "Professor Xavier is a Jerk."
DeleteI bet in a fight he could really kick to butt of that guy from a while back who really "got" Wolverine.
ReplyDeleteThat's because "MOST" people are iron deficient.
ReplyDeleteYep Magneto is like Lex Luthor, except one is mutant-side and the other is human-side.
ReplyDeleteFor Magneto, he's been persecuted as a mutant and sees humanity as mutant persecutors who hurt mutants because they're afraid of them, afraid of their superiority.He wants mutants to rule, as they are the next step of evolution, the superior beings. They should rule, not be forced into compromises at best and persecuted at worse.
For Lex, he sees supers as too dangerous and believes in human purity. Superman happens to be a super nice guy, but if he wasn't, if he was aiming to rule the Earth, then Lex would be praised and hailed as a hero and savior. I'm only exaggerating a little.
So it's not morality... onl perspective.
As for this guy... he's probably being persecuted due to being an idiot and believes idiot should rule.
Or something.
It drives me crazy that Lex Luthor isn't viewed as a hero. He'd guide us into a golden age of prosperity if only we'd let him. Instead everyone worships some superpowered farmboy imposing his antiquated and completely uneducated views on morality on the populace of the planet as if that's the face of progress.
DeleteSuperman should go back to the cornfields and leave the visionaries to their work. Either that or start helping out by donating his large collection of Alien Tech to Luthor instead of letting it collect dust in his fortress of solitude out of some misguided sentimentality.
#1 - Might Makes Right!
Delete#2- There aint no dust in the frozen tundra that houses the Fortress of Solitude.
#3- Lex Luther never worked in a soup kitchen.
Yeah, all Lex Luthor ever did was successfully create a means for humanity to bypass the limits of our physical bodies, invent a mechanism to transfer a mind into a cloned body thus bringing us closer to conquering mortality itself, and almost singlehandedly spearhead the rebuilding of Gotham City after a natural disaster had completely destroyed it and nobody else was willing to lend aid.
DeletePfft. Never worked in a soup kitchen. He's a genius multibillionaire and you expect him to waste his time and energy on manual labor?
Of course, there's always Luthor's cold hearted tendency to murder innocent people who get in his way or make mistakes. REAL hero.
DeleteGotta break a few eggs to make an omelet. Not like he's the only hero ever to be a little cold-blooded or to kill people. Guy's not perfect, but he's definitely more hero than villain.
DeleteLex Luthor is a murderer that is motivated almost solely by greed. His desire to defend the Earth has nothing to do with helping people and everything to do with feeding his own ego. During the Blackest Night, the orange ring of avarice didn't choose him for nothing. He's like any other criminal. They always have some sort of excuse for doing the evil things they do but in the end the ends almost never justify the means. Just because his character is more developed than the stereotypical characature of a villain doesn't bring him even remotely close to being a hero.
ReplyDeleteThe man's greedy? Why the hell shouldn't he be? Do you complain when someone who cured a disease was motivated by personal gain? If they cured a disease the deserve to make some money off of it. The man created Metallo and we're supposed to vilify him because he was motivated by a desire to kill an Alien Menace? Or even if we're gonna say a desire to kill a hero, the man still invented Metallo. What possible motivation could change the fact that through his actions he consistently strengthens humanity? So he's got a grudge. Doesn't change the fact that he's the only one actively working to keep Superman from having his way with the planet.
DeleteYou can't tell me that Superman's not a threat. His alien physiology alone has repeatedly placed him in the role of the destroyer. His flesh may be tough but his mind is still vulnerable. Any day he could crack if he just happened to be subjected to the right experiences. There's nothing the man does that humanity couldn't do for itself but he breeds complacency in the hearts of men because everyone's so goshdarn sure that when times get tough the alien will take care of everything for them.
Is Lex Luthor Greedy? Sure. Is he Power Hungry? Absolutely. It's absurd that anyone ever isn't. Everyone should be both those things. If anything the fact that Superman somehow lacks any desire for personal gain is a clear sign that something's wrong with him and he's a ticking time bomb of repressed emotion, probably due to his upbringing. The day Lex Luthor becomes unnecessary is the day we get Superman a shrink and he starts using those powers to make some cash on the side.
There's something very disturbing about the way you seem to think 'the fact that Superman somehow lacks any desire for personal gain is a clear sign that something's wrong with him'. You're not one of those Randroids, are you?
DeleteYou pretend as if Superman wasn't in the equation Lex Luthor would be nothing but a benefactor for the human race. That simply isn't the case. If he didn't have Superman as a distraction he would be using his super intelligence and inventions to bend humanity to his will. And you continually seem to gloss over the fact that he casually murders innocent people when they're mere inconveniences. For instance, he once ordered the assassination of a pair of truckers simply for not getting a shipment delivered fast enough. A hero would NEVER do something like that, and the fact that you seem to think that's somehow hero material and A-OK is pretty scary. I fear for those who live near you.
ReplyDeleteI seem to remember a plotline where Superman disappeared from Earth for a year or so. Did Lex take the opportunity to use his vast genius to lead humanity into a new golden age? No, he spent the time plotting new ways to defeat Superman for when he (inevitably) came back. Sums it up really.
DeleteHeroes can get away with things we can't. In actuality running around the city with your face obscured beating up civilians isn't A-OK in the first place but nobody's claiming that Batman's not a hero because his behavior would be monstrous if any of us were to do the same. That's something Lex has a leg up on the most of the heroic community by the way. He's never had to hide behind an alias. Lex Luthor can answer for his actions. Can Superman?
DeleteMore on the contrary. The catch of being a Hero is that you can't afford to do things normal people would. Specially Superman, who could just, like, snap the neck of Lex Luthor, problem solved. I mean, that's who anyone would do with a recurrent nemesis who time and time again attempts to kill you no matter how many times you have spared him.
DeleteBut Superman doesn't kill him because, he is a superhero, he can't abuse his powers. With great power comes great responsibility and all that.
"We only let let Batman do what HE does because he keeps it on the rights side of the LAW. This is Simple. You're a MURDERER. And I'm taking you to JAIL, Red Hood."
ReplyDelete- Commissioner Gordon, Batman and Robin #6.
Wait, that can't be an actual quote. I mean, what Batman does is blatantly illegal. The number of laws he breaks on the average night dives into the realm of absurdity.
DeleteWell either way I guess you got me. Any definition of hero where Red Hood doesn't qualify probably also wouldn't include ol' Luthor.
There plenty of illegal activities and "crimes" that can be overlooked for the greater good, but there are also a few that just plain can't. Murder and rape for instance. No matter how many times you save the city or planet I don't think you'll ever get away with being a pedophile. Those kinds of things make speeding, destruction of property, and sending thugs to the ER downright forgiveable.
ReplyDeleteSay what you will about murder, in a universe where The Joker is hanging around I have a hard time swallowing the attitude that it's an absolutely unforgivable act with no exceptions. I mean if he was my city's problem I'm pretty sure I wouldn't make it past the third breakout without beginning to reevaluate my views on due process.
DeleteHeck, on a basic level it's just math. How many lives have been saved, how many people were killed. If it's a net gain then you're in the clear.
And this is the reason why superhero stories aren't usually located on Texas, were the Legal System would have no qualms to fry every Villiain as the hero hands him to the cops. And you as a writer would be unable to re-utilize villiains.
Delete"We only let let Batman do what HE does because he keeps it on the rights side of the LAW. This is Simple. You're a MURDERER. And I'm taking you to JAIL, Red Hood."
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind that the Batman in question was Dick Grayson, who, being an ex-cop, was a lot more cooperative with the police than Bruce Wayne. Gordon and the GCPD might not have known who was under the cowl, but they knew it was a different Batman.
Ah, that makes sense. Not like Commissioner Gordon was touting the legality of Bruce Wayne's actions or anything. If you're working closely with the police and they're aware of your activities then it really is a different story. Just a quick "Hey, this is happening and this is what I'm doing about it. That cool with you guys?" makes all the difference.
DeleteI'll certainly admit that in a universe where the heroes hadn't come to be portrayed as progressively more morally ambiguous Lex definitely wouldn't qualify for that kind of status. Just with all the people running around in the DCU doing their thing, always for the greater good regardless of the cost, I find it a little hard to condemn Lex Luthor for what seems to me to be some very minor differences in his morality.
Luthor served as President of the United States. If that doesn't make him a villain, then I don't know what could.
DeleteI hear a lot of people got separated in the camps.
ReplyDeletetoo bad this guy's parents didn't die in the holocaust too
ReplyDeleteSeriously, what is wrong with you?
DeleteMaybe it's that him and Magneto both think they're superior to other people without justification.
ReplyDeleteOf course they were separated at birth. Magneto went to the camp, while this guy got adopted by some nazi happy family.
ReplyDelete