I think it's because the Fast and the Furious was a completely new franchise without any baggage or preconceptions. It could be its own thing, without having to worry about alienating the fan base (because there wasn't one yet) or keeping up with all the other movies in the "driving really fast" sub-genre (because Days of Thunder was eleven years ago and no one remembers it) or how it will fit into the canon.
The first movie came out, people went to see it without any expectations other than that they would see cars going really fast, and they liked it. Sometimes, it really is that simple.
Part of the problem is that there is a real shortage of good Wonder Woman villains. Superman has Luthor, Brainiac, Zod, and Darkseid. Batman has Joker, Two-Face, Catwoman, and Ra's al-Ghul. Iron Man has Iron Monger, Justin Hammer, and Mandarin. Captain America has Red Skull. Thor has Loki. Spider-Man has Dr. Octopus and Green Goblin. All of them have, in addition to those A-list villains, a number of solid B-list villains too.
Who does Wonder Woman have? Circe? Ares? Okay villains, but not exactly original characters (although that's an issue for Thor too, of course). Cheetah? She's sort of Wonder Woman's opposite number, which works with a lot of supervillains, except she's less powerful and has an inapposite animal theme. Silver Swan? Same basic thing as Cheetah, but with an even less menacing animal totem. Dr. Psycho? For most superheroes, he'd make a very good B-list villain, but he's not really A-list material. Veronica Cale? Probably the best of the lot, but with the small problem that she's actually a little too sympathetic. A lot of her criticisms of Wondy make a little too much sense.
Having a good villain is critical, because the villain is the plot. Without a good villain, the hero has nothing to do. I'm not saying that's the only obstacle to trying to get a Wonder Woman movie made, but it is a significant problem.
He started out as a Justice League villain, not an opponent to a particular hero. He first appeared in Justice League of America, volume 1, issue 10. Over the years he has mostly been a JLA villain. He's appeared in other titles and fought other characters, of course, and Wonder Woman has been a League member in most of its incarnations, so they have fought, but he's not primarily a Wondy villain.
That's not to say that one could not possibly use him as the primary antagonist for a Wonder Woman movie, but it's not clear why he would be a good choice. As a general rule, I think that good supervillains are the opposite number of the hero in some way. Spider-Man's archenemy is Dr. Octopus, who also has an eight-limbed animal totem. Luthor is super in his intellect as Clark is super-powered physically (the original incarnation of Luthor was called the Ultra-Humanite; see Superman & Batman: Generations). It's not clear to me how Faust is a good counterpart or opposite number to Wonder Woman.
To be honest, if there were a DC villain I'd adapt for Wonder Woman, it would probably be Black Adam. He's a good opposite number because he's also empowered by pagan deities, and he also thinks his power gives him the right to guide, lead, or rule ordinary humanity. Plus which, he's too grand and tragic a villain for a goofy hero like Captain Marvel. That's a debatable point, though.
The problem with a WW movie is the same problem the Thor movie had: a character whose backstory, supporting cast and villains mostly revolve around well-established real-world mythos and none Regular Joes (TM) could be expected to have at least heard of that weren't created 1000+ years ago, and no storylines Regular Joes (TM) could be expected to have at least heard of at all.
Except now you have to add the problem of people clamoring for a WW movie (who was asking for a Thor movie?) and knowing the character only as a political symbol rather than a character (which, to be fair, she was from before day one).
And WW is a really frustrating character just from a literary standpoint. The nature and extent of her powers is inconsistent, as is her origin.
Superman was always sent by Jor-El from a dying Krypton and crash-landed on Earth, and he always gets power from solar radiation. Batman was always forced to watch his parents murdered by a mugger, and he always trained for years to be the best at everything he could, including fighting, and making gadgets for what he couldn't.
WW was molded by Hippolyta from clay, or was it Hippolyta and another Amazon, or was it Hippolyta and Zeus or one of the other gods? WW is super-strong, on par with Supes, except when she's not, except when it's not even her, it's Hephaestus' golden girdle. She can fly, except when she can't and needs the Invisible Jet. She needs the bracers to deflect bullets, except when she's immune to bullets and the bracers are just for intimidation and the Rule of Cool. She could be bound by a man but we can't due that anymore because that's sexist, and whoops we forget to replace it with a weakness that made sense so now she has no weak points for someone to exploit. Unless it's the hair, you could grab it, I guess.
And her backstory is boring. Every other hero that's been adapted has death and destruction and tragedy and loss to give them some kind of drive to go off the beaten path and be a superhero. Bats lost his parents, Spiderman lost his parents AND his uncle, Supes' race was almost made extinct AND his planet blew up, Martian Manhunter lost his wife and kid AND his race was almost made extinct, Daredevil lost his father AND his sight, the Fantastic Four lost their chance at a normal life AND Ben Grimm lost his humanity, the X-men lost their chance at a normal life when they hit puberty, with lots of their members losing family members and suffering trauma along the way, Blade lost his mother, Hal Jordan lost his father, Captain America lost everyone he knew the 40s, Tony Stark lost his innocence in thinking his company was alright and nothing nefarious was going behind the scenes and he lost his foster father in more ways than one, Thor lost the approval of his father, then he lost his father too, then the bond with his brother then he lost his mother too, B, Bruce Banner lost his parents and his emotional stability, Green Arrow lost his respect for his father then his father and his innocence, Flash lost both his parents (one dead, one in jail),
What did WW lose? She's not exiled from Themyscira, she goes back all the time. She has no reason other than "they need my help" to enter Man's World. That's fine if it's the Silver Age, but it's not the Silver Age anymore. Pa Kent is dead now in a lot of modern Superman stories. Modern Batman stories paint Bruce Wayne as just as psychologically scarred as any of his foes. Whether you like those kinds of aspects in the stories (I personally think killing off Pa Kent is a bad move), WW appears as a flat character when she has no reason to exist other than "we needed a girl superhero, so I made one".
I've got to say, that nearly every comment on this thread made coherent, sane and perfect sense about the reasons for the difficulty of making a good Wonder Woman film. Kudos to everyone! Threads like these are few and far between.
Well, five, maybe six solid action movies, but still...
ReplyDeleteChange the hero to Wonder Man, and you'll get your movie.
ReplyDeleteYou just made me sad.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteIt's extremely sad because of how true it is. T__T
DeleteIt'll be a Marvel movie, though.
DeleteWhat's worse: no Wonder Woman movie, or a movie about the "Wonder Woman" from that infamous pilot?
The worst would be a Wonder Man movie, obviously. That guys sucks.
DeleteI think that he has hit the nail on the head perfectly.
ReplyDeleteHow indeed...
ReplyDeleteI think it's because the Fast and the Furious was a completely new franchise without any baggage or preconceptions. It could be its own thing, without having to worry about alienating the fan base (because there wasn't one yet) or keeping up with all the other movies in the "driving really fast" sub-genre (because Days of Thunder was eleven years ago and no one remembers it) or how it will fit into the canon.
ReplyDeleteThe first movie came out, people went to see it without any expectations other than that they would see cars going really fast, and they liked it. Sometimes, it really is that simple.
Part of the problem is that there is a real shortage of good Wonder Woman villains. Superman has Luthor, Brainiac, Zod, and Darkseid. Batman has Joker, Two-Face, Catwoman, and Ra's al-Ghul. Iron Man has Iron Monger, Justin Hammer, and Mandarin. Captain America has Red Skull. Thor has Loki. Spider-Man has Dr. Octopus and Green Goblin. All of them have, in addition to those A-list villains, a number of solid B-list villains too.
ReplyDeleteWho does Wonder Woman have? Circe? Ares? Okay villains, but not exactly original characters (although that's an issue for Thor too, of course). Cheetah? She's sort of Wonder Woman's opposite number, which works with a lot of supervillains, except she's less powerful and has an inapposite animal theme. Silver Swan? Same basic thing as Cheetah, but with an even less menacing animal totem. Dr. Psycho? For most superheroes, he'd make a very good B-list villain, but he's not really A-list material. Veronica Cale? Probably the best of the lot, but with the small problem that she's actually a little too sympathetic. A lot of her criticisms of Wondy make a little too much sense.
Having a good villain is critical, because the villain is the plot. Without a good villain, the hero has nothing to do. I'm not saying that's the only obstacle to trying to get a Wonder Woman movie made, but it is a significant problem.
Is Felix Faust a Wonder Woman villain? He seemed really cool in DC Universe Online.
DeleteHe started out as a Justice League villain, not an opponent to a particular hero. He first appeared in Justice League of America, volume 1, issue 10. Over the years he has mostly been a JLA villain. He's appeared in other titles and fought other characters, of course, and Wonder Woman has been a League member in most of its incarnations, so they have fought, but he's not primarily a Wondy villain.
DeleteThat's not to say that one could not possibly use him as the primary antagonist for a Wonder Woman movie, but it's not clear why he would be a good choice. As a general rule, I think that good supervillains are the opposite number of the hero in some way. Spider-Man's archenemy is Dr. Octopus, who also has an eight-limbed animal totem. Luthor is super in his intellect as Clark is super-powered physically (the original incarnation of Luthor was called the Ultra-Humanite; see Superman & Batman: Generations). It's not clear to me how Faust is a good counterpart or opposite number to Wonder Woman.
To be honest, if there were a DC villain I'd adapt for Wonder Woman, it would probably be Black Adam. He's a good opposite number because he's also empowered by pagan deities, and he also thinks his power gives him the right to guide, lead, or rule ordinary humanity. Plus which, he's too grand and tragic a villain for a goofy hero like Captain Marvel. That's a debatable point, though.
The problem with a WW movie is the same problem the Thor movie had: a character whose backstory, supporting cast and villains mostly revolve around well-established real-world mythos and none Regular Joes (TM) could be expected to have at least heard of that weren't created 1000+ years ago, and no storylines Regular Joes (TM) could be expected to have at least heard of at all.
ReplyDeleteExcept now you have to add the problem of people clamoring for a WW movie (who was asking for a Thor movie?) and knowing the character only as a political symbol rather than a character (which, to be fair, she was from before day one).
And WW is a really frustrating character just from a literary standpoint. The nature and extent of her powers is inconsistent, as is her origin.
Superman was always sent by Jor-El from a dying Krypton and crash-landed on Earth, and he always gets power from solar radiation. Batman was always forced to watch his parents murdered by a mugger, and he always trained for years to be the best at everything he could, including fighting, and making gadgets for what he couldn't.
WW was molded by Hippolyta from clay, or was it Hippolyta and another Amazon, or was it Hippolyta and Zeus or one of the other gods? WW is super-strong, on par with Supes, except when she's not, except when it's not even her, it's Hephaestus' golden girdle. She can fly, except when she can't and needs the Invisible Jet. She needs the bracers to deflect bullets, except when she's immune to bullets and the bracers are just for intimidation and the Rule of Cool. She could be bound by a man but we can't due that anymore because that's sexist, and whoops we forget to replace it with a weakness that made sense so now she has no weak points for someone to exploit. Unless it's the hair, you could grab it, I guess.
And her backstory is boring. Every other hero that's been adapted has death and destruction and tragedy and loss to give them some kind of drive to go off the beaten path and be a superhero. Bats lost his parents, Spiderman lost his parents AND his uncle, Supes' race was almost made extinct AND his planet blew up, Martian Manhunter lost his wife and kid AND his race was almost made extinct, Daredevil lost his father AND his sight, the Fantastic Four lost their chance at a normal life AND Ben Grimm lost his humanity, the X-men lost their chance at a normal life when they hit puberty, with lots of their members losing family members and suffering trauma along the way, Blade lost his mother, Hal Jordan lost his father, Captain America lost everyone he knew the 40s, Tony Stark lost his innocence in thinking his company was alright and nothing nefarious was going behind the scenes and he lost his foster father in more ways than one, Thor lost the approval of his father, then he lost his father too, then the bond with his brother then he lost his mother too, B, Bruce Banner lost his parents and his emotional stability, Green Arrow lost his respect for his father then his father and his innocence, Flash lost both his parents (one dead, one in jail),
What did WW lose? She's not exiled from Themyscira, she goes back all the time. She has no reason other than "they need my help" to enter Man's World. That's fine if it's the Silver Age, but it's not the Silver Age anymore. Pa Kent is dead now in a lot of modern Superman stories. Modern Batman stories paint Bruce Wayne as just as psychologically scarred as any of his foes. Whether you like those kinds of aspects in the stories (I personally think killing off Pa Kent is a bad move), WW appears as a flat character when she has no reason to exist other than "we needed a girl superhero, so I made one".
I've got to say, that nearly every comment on this thread made coherent, sane and perfect sense about the reasons for the difficulty of making a good Wonder Woman film. Kudos to everyone! Threads like these are few and far between.
ReplyDelete