I don't know, not understanding that it's a freakin' comic and not real (thus not subject to current medical practices, or free from temporal restructuring of reality) would qualify as "crazies".
I wonder how this guy thinks superman flies, Spider-Man sticks to wall, or Batman survives being punched through so many walls.
Considering the environment that Barbara lives in, which contains people like Arsenal, Cyborg, Red Tornado, and things like purple healing rays, Lazarus pools, and on and on, it's been harder to accept that she was actually stuck in that wheelchair for any reason other than preference.
I'm actually kind of pissed off about this one. Oracle is without a question my favorite female character in comics and it feels like they're shitting on 20 years of character development.
She went from Being a sidekick to an amazing woman who overcame a tragedy and through it became an even bigger force to be reckoned with. Oracle is intelligent resourceful and basically the person anyone and everyone goes to for information. You don't fuck with her.
I'd be lying if said I didn't nurse an embarrassing little crush on this particular fictional character.
I'm mostly in agreement here. Everyone knew Batman's broken back was the equivalent of TEH DEF OF SOOPERMAN!!!1 or Denny O'Neil's "slap a black man into the honky's suit for a while" shtick: it was never going to last.
But when the Power That Be at DC tried to crush Babs, she came back as a better character than ever before. Oracle made her own mark on the DCU. Now Babs' being switched back to a Bat-Family C-Lister. Spoiler's Replacement. (And who the hell knows what fate they have in store for Stephanie Brown AGAIN.)
Anon Above: "It feels like they're shitting on 20 years of character development." DC: "Yep! Pretty much. We're quite proud of ourselves."
Wait, what? I thought that Oracle had been refusing to let herself get healed through any miraculous means because it wouldn't be fair for the average person whp couldn't get healed that way. And now all of a sudden she gets healed? That's wrong. That's the DEFINITION of the aforementioned "Shitting on 20 years of character development".
And Jason Todd not being dead anymore makes more sense?
...or Bruce Wayne not being dead anymore. Or never being dead. Or whatever. I didn't really read that storyline, and I just ended up confused whenever I tried to figure out what happened in it.
Barbara Gordon walking again is probably the most believable thing to happen in a Batman title for years...
I wanna know, are they even going to explain why she can walk again? Or is a literal reset button, and it's gonna be as if Oracle never existed? Which I think would be the even bigger shame, because not only is it "shitting on 20 years of character development", it's downright erasing 20 years of the incredible things Oracle accomplished. It makes a girl want to cry.
At the DC retailer roadshow they explained a litte why they were bringing Barbara back as Batgirl and a little on how it was going to work. The reason for it is really simple but not something fans of Oracle will like. To anyone outside of comic fans Barbara Gordon is who is associated with Batgirl, not Cassandra Cain and not Stephanie Brown. They want to take the character back to what is the most broadly recognized version for the reboot/relaunch. The new Batgirl #1 will pick shortly after the events of The Killing Joke, show flashbacks to that and flashbacks to Barbara going through physical therapy and training in order to be back out on the streets. So it looks like the Oracle character will never have existed. Barbara is the most recognized and therefor most accessible version of the character and that is what DC wants because at the end of the day it's about trying to recruit new readership, sell more comics and make more money.
Uhm. First, she's not getting healed. It's a reboot- so there's nothing miraculous or medical going on.
Second, this is a universe where medicine has gone past what we in our real world have. So fine, she doesn't want robot parts or magic help because regular people don't get that sort of thing (although that's ridiculous because many of the robotic and magic supers were regular BEFORE they got the help that made them magic robots, like Cyborg and Metallo), but she doesn't NEED specialized JLA style help. There are several stories in the DCU of people getting major medical treatment like implants of parts that makes no sense whatsoever.
So, while she is a more deep character as Oracle, it didn't make sense to keep her in a wheelchair except to show that she is handi-capable.
I kind of view it as a slap in the face to wheelchair bound comic book readers out there who don't have the benefit of a "reboot". I thought it was empowering to have a handi-capable character in the superhero world. I think THAT is a lot more valuable and worth keeping than taking out of her chair in hopes attracting new readers. It seems like a "Screw our old loyal readers" to me.
Of course, Denny O'Neil isn't the ONLY one to do that. James Rhodes temped for Tony Stark. Easier than creating new characters, I guess. (Don't get me started on Steel, AKA Iron Thor.)
Barbara is "more recognizable" as Batgirl than Oracle because aside from one of the worst adaptations in TV history, Oracle has been ignored outside of the comic books.
WB had the balls to KILL Barbara in a shocking, traumatic fashion in the toons (even if it turned out to be "all just a dream"), but they didn't have the balls to put her in a chair. Fanboys screw their little faces up and whine, "ewwww, I don't wanna see a cripple," when real-life human beings with such handicaps are everywhere.
Given the option of maintaining one of their most inspirational characters and bravest editorial decisions, and playing it safe by reverting Babs to Bat-Tits in skintight spandex and no "yucky" problems, DC has chosen to play it safe.
Hey, it's hardly the only bad decision they've made lately.
One thing that's always bothered me about most superhero continuities is what unrelenting assholes most of the supers are for having all sorts of schmancy healing magic/technology that lets them keep going, but not sharing that with the rest of the world. Man, if I developed functional cyborg tech, I would have that $#!+ in every emergency room in the world next week. Paraplegics in the Marvel U? Screw you, Tony Stark! Cripples in the DCU? Go to hell, Victor Stone! The only non-asshole superheroes are the animated Teen Titans, because Cyborg hung out with a park full of kids who had full-function cybernetic prostheses.
As a disable person let me tell you how fucking pissed off I am about that bullshit. Basically the only truly disabled kick ass character to exist and they change her from the awesome Oracle back into a subpar superhero Batgirl. Can't have a woman doing good or showing that disabled people can actually do anything
Yeah, I totally agree! They need to cripple Oracle again, and they need to cripple more female heroes! We can't let our women WALK, that would be too empowering!
Babs got crippled in a typical Women in Refrigerators bout of stupidity. Other writers came and redeemed her later. But you know what? Just because she gains the use of her legs DOES NOT MEAN THAT HER CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT IS WASTED. She is the same person. She won't become an idiot and forget to use a computer. If anything, her perspective now that she can walk might be interesting.
But nooooo, people have to say, "WAAAH! I DON'T WANT MY WOMEN TO WALK! WOMEN WHO CAN WALK ARE SHALLOW! CRIPPLE THEM ALL!"
@Anon Hey if she stays the same but with the ability to walk then more power to her. That would be awesome even. I'm just bracing for the worst in the REBOOT, as in starting over. Maybe I'm just cynical but I can't help but feel like they're going to fuck this up.
Quote: "But nooooo, people have to say, 'WAAAH! I DON'T WANT MY WOMEN TO WALK! WOMEN WHO CAN WALK ARE SHALLOW! CRIPPLE THEM ALL!'"
This is the stupidest straw-man argument I have ever read in all my years. Nobody said that or anything even remotely like that.
While it's true that Barbara's shooting was a pure WIF moment created by a writer and approved by an editorial team whose regard for women ranks somewhere below urinal cakes, it's also true that all the positive changes to the character since then would never have taken place otherwise.
And yes, when she goes back to being a spandex-clad gymnast all that characterization will start taking a back seat to DAT ASS and DEM BOOBS and her leadership qualities will quietly vanish. "Oracle" was an original, inspirational character. "BatGIRL"...yeah, not so much, but the hounds make more rule 34 of her.
I don't agree at all with what Anon 6.52 said, but I just thought I'd point out that that's not a feminist rant, it's just someone that's saying something silly.
I love Oracle. I'm disappointed that they're doing this when she's such a unique character and far more inspirational the way she is now. It just seems like such a terrible idea.
The only reason Babs is more recognisable as Batgirl is because she's Batgirl in most of the cartoons. If they had Cass or Steph in a show I'm sure they would soon take over as the prominent female sidekick.
"Maybe I'm just cynical but I can't help but feel like they're going to fuck this up"
You're right to feel that way. A reboot should be used to fix what's been irrevocably broken (for example Shazam, Captain Atom, Manhunter, and all the other 'properties' that have been screwed to oblivion).
DC seems to be using this reboot to break anything and everything that still ain't broke.
not sure why this guy is listed as a crazy. He is just folks and I completely agree with him.
ReplyDeleteYeah! What do they think this is? Some kind of setting with flying aliens and magic rings and crap!?
ReplyDeleteI don't know, not understanding that it's a freakin' comic and not real (thus not subject to current medical practices, or free from temporal restructuring of reality) would qualify as "crazies".
ReplyDeleteI wonder how this guy thinks superman flies, Spider-Man sticks to wall, or Batman survives being punched through so many walls.
"so forget all that you see
ReplyDeleteIt's not reality
It's just a fantasy"
~aldo nova
Considering the environment that Barbara lives in, which contains people like Arsenal, Cyborg, Red Tornado, and things like purple healing rays, Lazarus pools, and on and on, it's been harder to accept that she was actually stuck in that wheelchair for any reason other than preference.
ReplyDeleteBecause when a male character regains his abilities after a tragedy it's just business as usual, right?
ReplyDelete/sarcasm
I'm actually kind of pissed off about this one.
ReplyDeleteOracle is without a question my favorite female character in comics and it feels like they're shitting on 20 years of character development.
She went from Being a sidekick to an amazing woman who overcame a tragedy and through it became an even bigger force to be reckoned with. Oracle is intelligent resourceful and basically the person anyone and everyone goes to for information. You don't fuck with her.
I'd be lying if said I didn't nurse an embarrassing little crush on this particular fictional character.
I'm mostly in agreement here. Everyone knew Batman's broken back was the equivalent of TEH DEF OF SOOPERMAN!!!1 or Denny O'Neil's "slap a black man into the honky's suit for a while" shtick: it was never going to last.
ReplyDeleteBut when the Power That Be at DC tried to crush Babs, she came back as a better character than ever before. Oracle made her own mark on the DCU. Now Babs' being switched back to a Bat-Family C-Lister. Spoiler's Replacement. (And who the hell knows what fate they have in store for Stephanie Brown AGAIN.)
Anon Above: "It feels like they're shitting on 20 years of character development."
DC: "Yep! Pretty much. We're quite proud of ourselves."
"Denny O'Neil's "slap a black man into the honky's suit for a while" shtick"
ReplyDeleteYou do know that the original Azrael, the one who replaced Bruce in the 90's as Batman, was a white dude and not the current Azrael... Right?
Wait, what? I thought that Oracle had been refusing to let herself get healed through any miraculous means because it wouldn't be fair for the average person whp couldn't get healed that way. And now all of a sudden she gets healed? That's wrong. That's the DEFINITION of the aforementioned "Shitting on 20 years of character development".
ReplyDeleteAnd Jason Todd not being dead anymore makes more sense?
ReplyDelete...or Bruce Wayne not being dead anymore. Or never being dead. Or whatever. I didn't really read that storyline, and I just ended up confused whenever I tried to figure out what happened in it.
Barbara Gordon walking again is probably the most believable thing to happen in a Batman title for years...
I wanna know, are they even going to explain why she can walk again? Or is a literal reset button, and it's gonna be as if Oracle never existed? Which I think would be the even bigger shame, because not only is it "shitting on 20 years of character development", it's downright erasing 20 years of the incredible things Oracle accomplished. It makes a girl want to cry.
ReplyDeleteAt the DC retailer roadshow they explained a litte why they were bringing Barbara back as Batgirl and a little on how it was going to work. The reason for it is really simple but not something fans of Oracle will like. To anyone outside of comic fans Barbara Gordon is who is associated with Batgirl, not Cassandra Cain and not Stephanie Brown. They want to take the character back to what is the most broadly recognized version for the reboot/relaunch. The new Batgirl #1 will pick shortly after the events of The Killing Joke, show flashbacks to that and flashbacks to Barbara going through physical therapy and training in order to be back out on the streets. So it looks like the Oracle character will never have existed. Barbara is the most recognized and therefor most accessible version of the character and that is what DC wants because at the end of the day it's about trying to recruit new readership, sell more comics and make more money.
ReplyDeleteUhm. First, she's not getting healed. It's a reboot- so there's nothing miraculous or medical going on.
ReplyDeleteSecond, this is a universe where medicine has gone past what we in our real world have. So fine, she doesn't want robot parts or magic help because regular people don't get that sort of thing (although that's ridiculous because many of the robotic and magic supers were regular BEFORE they got the help that made them magic robots, like Cyborg and Metallo), but she doesn't NEED specialized JLA style help. There are several stories in the DCU of people getting major medical treatment like implants of parts that makes no sense whatsoever.
So, while she is a more deep character as Oracle, it didn't make sense to keep her in a wheelchair except to show that she is handi-capable.
It's a relaunch, not a reboot. And apparently Killing Joke still happened in DCnU, so...
ReplyDelete...of course, there's still the outside chance Batgirl turns out to be a Ganger.
While it KIND OF makes sense, it's also pretty much flushing two decades of character development down the toilet. Way to go, DC!
ReplyDeleteStem cells.
ReplyDelete"You do know that the original Azrael, the one who replaced Bruce in the 90's as Batman, was a white dude and not the current Azrael... Right?"
ReplyDeleteHe's talking about John Stewart Green Lantern, who was originally created by O'Neill and Adams during their '70s run.
Either way, Cassandra Cain isn't Batgirl anymore :(
ReplyDeleteIf DC thinks Barbara Gordon is more recognizable as Batgirl then try harder!
I kind of view it as a slap in the face to wheelchair bound comic book readers out there who don't have the benefit of a "reboot". I thought it was empowering to have a handi-capable character in the superhero world. I think THAT is a lot more valuable and worth keeping than taking out of her chair in hopes attracting new readers. It seems like a "Screw our old loyal readers" to me.
ReplyDeleteOf course, Denny O'Neil isn't the ONLY one to do that. James Rhodes temped for Tony Stark. Easier than creating new characters, I guess. (Don't get me started on Steel, AKA Iron Thor.)
ReplyDeleteBarbara is "more recognizable" as Batgirl than Oracle because aside from one of the worst adaptations in TV history, Oracle has been ignored outside of the comic books.
WB had the balls to KILL Barbara in a shocking, traumatic fashion in the toons (even if it turned out to be "all just a dream"), but they didn't have the balls to put her in a chair. Fanboys screw their little faces up and whine, "ewwww, I don't wanna see a cripple," when real-life human beings with such handicaps are everywhere.
Given the option of maintaining one of their most inspirational characters and bravest editorial decisions, and playing it safe by reverting Babs to Bat-Tits in skintight spandex and no "yucky" problems, DC has chosen to play it safe.
Hey, it's hardly the only bad decision they've made lately.
One thing that's always bothered me about most superhero continuities is what unrelenting assholes most of the supers are for having all sorts of schmancy healing magic/technology that lets them keep going, but not sharing that with the rest of the world. Man, if I developed functional cyborg tech, I would have that $#!+ in every emergency room in the world next week. Paraplegics in the Marvel U? Screw you, Tony Stark! Cripples in the DCU? Go to hell, Victor Stone! The only non-asshole superheroes are the animated Teen Titans, because Cyborg hung out with a park full of kids who had full-function cybernetic prostheses.
ReplyDelete^
ReplyDeleteYou've obviously never read any Titans books with Cyborg to make that comment.
KILLING JOKE STILL HAPPENED AND BARBARA STILL WAS ORACLE ACCORDING TO DC!
ReplyDeleteSorry about the captions, but I wanted to make sure everyone saw it. :p
As a disable person let me tell you how fucking pissed off I am about that bullshit. Basically the only truly disabled kick ass character to exist and they change her from the awesome Oracle back into a subpar superhero Batgirl. Can't have a woman doing good or showing that disabled people can actually do anything
ReplyDeleteYeah, I totally agree! They need to cripple Oracle again, and they need to cripple more female heroes! We can't let our women WALK, that would be too empowering!
ReplyDeleteBabs got crippled in a typical Women in Refrigerators bout of stupidity. Other writers came and redeemed her later. But you know what? Just because she gains the use of her legs DOES NOT MEAN THAT HER CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT IS WASTED. She is the same person. She won't become an idiot and forget to use a computer. If anything, her perspective now that she can walk might be interesting.
But nooooo, people have to say, "WAAAH! I DON'T WANT MY WOMEN TO WALK! WOMEN WHO CAN WALK ARE SHALLOW! CRIPPLE THEM ALL!"
Also, it's "we're" not were. Thought I'd throw that out there. =P
ReplyDelete@Anon
ReplyDeleteHey if she stays the same but with the ability to walk then more power to her. That would be awesome even. I'm just bracing for the worst in the REBOOT, as in starting over. Maybe I'm just cynical but I can't help but feel like they're going to fuck this up.
@Anon 6:52
ReplyDeleteSo, what are you saying here? That people are only interesting if they can walk? That people in wheelchairs can't be heroes?
Take your inappropriate feminist rants elsewhere.
Quote: "But nooooo, people have to say, 'WAAAH! I DON'T WANT MY WOMEN TO WALK! WOMEN WHO CAN WALK ARE SHALLOW! CRIPPLE THEM ALL!'"
ReplyDeleteThis is the stupidest straw-man argument I have ever read in all my years. Nobody said that or anything even remotely like that.
While it's true that Barbara's shooting was a pure WIF moment created by a writer and approved by an editorial team whose regard for women ranks somewhere below urinal cakes, it's also true that all the positive changes to the character since then would never have taken place otherwise.
And yes, when she goes back to being a spandex-clad gymnast all that characterization will start taking a back seat to DAT ASS and DEM BOOBS and her leadership qualities will quietly vanish. "Oracle" was an original, inspirational character. "BatGIRL"...yeah, not so much, but the hounds make more rule 34 of her.
@Anon 7.11
ReplyDeleteI don't agree at all with what Anon 6.52 said, but I just thought I'd point out that that's not a feminist rant, it's just someone that's saying something silly.
I love Oracle. I'm disappointed that they're doing this when she's such a unique character and far more inspirational the way she is now. It just seems like such a terrible idea.
The only reason Babs is more recognisable as Batgirl is because she's Batgirl in most of the cartoons. If they had Cass or Steph in a show I'm sure they would soon take over as the prominent female sidekick.
@Anon 7:40
ReplyDeleteI guess that's the problem with the internet. You saw someone saying something silly, I saw someone getting on their soapbox.
"Maybe I'm just cynical but I can't help but feel like they're going to fuck this up"
ReplyDeleteYou're right to feel that way. A reboot should be used to fix what's been irrevocably broken (for example Shazam, Captain Atom, Manhunter, and all the other 'properties' that have been screwed to oblivion).
DC seems to be using this reboot to break anything and everything that still ain't broke.